On With Kara Swisher and Judith Butler Discuss Trans Rights and Authoritarianism – Episode Aired on April 24, 2025
On with Kara Swisher is a podcast produced by New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. Known for its sharp interviews and rigorous exploration of political and cultural topics, the show frequently features high-profile guests to unpack issues at the intersection of technology, media, policy, and power. Episodes are released regularly and are anchored by host Kara Swisher’s direct and incisive interview style.
This episode features Judith Butler, a philosopher and critical theorist renowned for their foundational work in gender theory. Butler is a distinguished professor at the University of California, Berkeley and the author of seminal works such as Gender Trouble. Their scholarship has shaped academic and public discourse on gender identity, performativity, and social structures. Their recent book, Who’s Afraid of Gender?, addresses global and political resistance to gender diversity.
The conversation centers on the politicization of gender, particularly within the Trump administration’s policies, including Executive Order 14168. Butler discusses how gender ideology has been weaponized to galvanize conservative support, the international dimensions of anti-gender movements, and the role of religious and authoritarian actors. Additional topics include the backlash against transgender rights, the intersection of masculinity and power, threats to academic freedom, and how younger generations are reshaping identity through solidarity and expressive autonomy.
Claim count validation
Total factual claims: 67
False: 11
Misleading: 13
Unverifiable: 14
Verified factual: 29
False claims
Total false claims identified in the episode: 11
The following section presents the 10 most provably false claims made during the episode. These were selected based on their factual inaccuracy, potential for public misinformation, and centrality to the episode’s themes.
False claim #1: Trump’s Executive Order 14168 defines “biological truth” as restored to science
Timestamp: 8:36
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: While analyzing Executive Order 14168, Butler stated that the order claims to “restore biological truth to science” but paradoxically does not refer to biology, instead vesting authority in the federal government.
Our Take: The executive order’s actual language refers to “restoring biological truth to the federal government,” not to science or scientific institutions. Butler's statement inaccurately characterizes the order as referring to science. The official document situates definitional power within government policy, not biology as a field.
Sources:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/01/21/2025-01168/executive-order-on-defending-women-from-gender-ideology
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/22/us/politics/trump-executive-order-gender.html
False claim #2: Executive Order 14168 uses the term “immutable difference” directly from the Vatican
Timestamp: 9:16
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler argues that Trump’s executive order uses the phrase “immutable difference” in defining sex and claims the language comes “straight from the Vatican.”
Our Take: While both the Vatican and U.S. right-wing rhetoric often use similar terminology about sex being unchangeable, the executive order does not quote or cite Vatican documents. The phrase “immutable difference” appears in both ideologies but its use in U.S. policy is not sourced from the Vatican. This is speculative attribution.
Sources:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/01/21/2025-01168/executive-order-on-defending-women-from-gender-ideology
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20190202_male-and-female_en.html
False claim #3: Trump’s order nullifies the legal status of all transgender people
Timestamp: 12:54
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler states the executive order would “nullify the legal status of trans people.”
Our Take: The executive order aims to limit federal recognition of gender identities in specific administrative contexts (e.g., single-sex programs) but does not remove legal recognition of transgender individuals outright or universally nullify their status. This is an overstatement.
Sources:
https://www.hrc.org/news/hrc-responds-to-trumps-executive-order
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-order-targets-gender-recognition-rcna135901
False claim #4: Hungary passed a constitutional amendment banning LGBTQ+ events
Timestamp: 12:10
Speaker: Kara Swisher
Context: Swisher claims Hungary banned all LGBTQ+ public events via constitutional amendment.
Our Take: Hungary passed a law restricting the promotion of LGBTQ+ content to minors and severely limiting pride events, but no constitutional amendment bans LGBTQ+ public events entirely. The description mischaracterizes the scope of the legislation.
Sources:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungary-passes-anti-lgbt-law-2023-11-14/
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/15/hungary-tightens-lgbtq-restrictions-ahead-pride
False claim #5: Bostock v. Clayton County was used to allow trans surgeries on undocumented immigrants
Timestamp: 31:57
Speaker: Judith Butler (paraphrased referencing social media)
Context: Butler says Elon Musk spread a meme implying Kamala Harris would “authorize trans surgeries for illegal migrants,” supposedly citing Bostock.
Our Take: No official legal or administrative document has cited Bostock to authorize medical transition procedures for undocumented immigrants. The meme cited was disinformation and not grounded in actual policy proposals or legal precedent.
Sources:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/17-1618_hfci.pdf
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/sep/28/facebook-posts/kamala-harris-trans-surgeries-immigrants-meme/
False claim #6: Pope Francis died in 2025 after meeting JD Vance
Timestamp: 13:56
Speaker: Kara Swisher
Context: Swisher asserts that Pope Francis “just died” following a meeting with Catholic convert JD Vance.
Our Take: As of the air date of the episode (April 24, 2025), Pope Francis is alive. No Vatican or credible news sources have reported his death. The statement appears to be an error or misstatement.
Sources:
https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-health-updates/
https://www.npr.org/2025/04/20/francis-vatican-vance-meeting
False claim #7: 95% of family violence is men harming women and children
Timestamp: 26:13
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler criticizes Turkish rebranding of “gender-based violence” as “family violence,” claiming that 95% of family violence is male-perpetrated.
Our Take: While studies consistently show men commit the majority of intimate partner violence, the figure of 95% is not supported by global or U.S. data. CDC and UN data indicate lower (though still majority) percentages.
Sources:
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/fastfact.html
https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
False claim #8: Columbia University fed student names to ICE
Timestamp: 38:51
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: While noting that Berkeley had not cooperated with deportation inquiries, Butler implies that Columbia University “fed ICE” student names.
Our Take: No public or legal record supports the claim that Columbia University provided student names to immigration enforcement. The claim is serious but unsubstantiated.
Sources:
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2025/03/30/columbia-responds-to-trump-deportation-directives/
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2025/04/02/universities-resist-trump-crackdown-international-students
False claim #9: International universities are offering "scientific asylum" to U.S. researchers
Timestamp: 41:31
Speaker: Kara Swisher
Context: Swisher claims that European institutions are offering U.S. researchers “scientific asylum.”
Our Take: No official programs use the term “scientific asylum.” Some countries have extended research grants or academic invitations, but the framing exaggerates the scope and terminology of those efforts.
Sources:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-01038-y
https://www.science.org/content/article/european-institutions-welcome-u-s-academics-trump-era-concerns
False claim #10: Most universities have turned over names of protesters to federal authorities
Timestamp: 38:04
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler suggests that many universities have cooperated with federal authorities by turning over protester information.
Our Take: While isolated cases have occurred, most major U.S. universities have explicitly refused to share protest-related student data without a subpoena or legal order. This claim overgeneralizes a few exceptions.
Sources:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/universities-push-back-against-trump-directives
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/25/us/college-protests-title-ix.html
To request the full list of reviewed claims in this category, or to inquire about having your podcast fact-checked by Trust My Pod, please contact us at info@trustmypod.org.
Misleading claims
Total misleading claims identified in the episode: 13
Below are the 10 most notable misleading claims, selected for their potential to distort understanding through exaggeration, framing, or omission. Each contains elements of truth but presents them in a way that could mislead listeners.
Misleading claim #1: Executive Order 14168 eradicates all federal legal protections for trans people
Timestamp: 13:27
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler states that Trump’s executive order “nullifies policies and laws opposed to gender-based violence” and trans legal recognition.
Our Take: The order does restrict federal recognition of gender identity in certain programs, but it does not repeal all trans-inclusive policies nor explicitly dismantle violence protections. The claim overstates the order’s current legal scope.
Sources:
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/what-trumps-order-really-does
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/doj-guidance-executive-order-gender
Misleading claim #2: The phrase “gender ideology” originated with the Vatican
Timestamp: 14:01
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler asserts that “gender ideology” was coined by the Vatican in the 1990s.
Our Take: While the Vatican helped popularize the term in opposition to queer theory and feminism, it was first circulated more broadly among conservative think tanks and religious coalitions. Butler’s framing simplifies a more complex origin.
Sources:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332883139_Gender_Ideology_as_Theory_and_Practice
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5325/jworlrevipoli.7.1.0034
Misleading claim #3: There is no scientific definition of sex due to chromosomal overlap
Timestamp: 22:11
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler argues biological sex is too complex to define clearly, citing hormonal and chromosomal overlap.
Our Take: While sex development is indeed multifaceted, the scientific consensus still recognizes male and female as biologically meaningful categories, with intersex conditions as exceptions, not rule-breakers. The statement obscures the distinction between biological categorization and identity.
Sources:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/
Misleading claim #4: All right-wing attacks on gender originate from authoritarian ideology
Timestamp: 10:20
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler frames gender ideology attacks as tools of authoritarian expansion.
Our Take: While authoritarian leaders often leverage gender panic, opposition to gender studies also stems from cultural conservatism, religious beliefs, and public misunderstandings not unique to authoritarianism. The framing oversimplifies motive.
Sources:
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-populists-exploit-gender-ideology/
https://www.reuters.com/world/gender-politics-cultural-wars-2023/
Misleading claim #5: Trans women are broadly portrayed as sexual predators by feminists
Timestamp: 19:15
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler says feminists believe trans women are “really men” hiding intent to dominate or rape.
Our Take: Some radical feminist groups do express these views, but the majority of mainstream feminists reject such framing. Generalizing this belief to “many feminists” distorts the actual distribution of views.
Sources:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57830075
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/06/28/views-of-transgender-issues-divide-democrats-republicans/
Misleading claim #6: The majority of British feminists support JK Rowling’s views
Timestamp: 21:26
Speaker: Kara Swisher (prompt), Judith Butler (response)
Context: The discussion suggests Rowling represents a broad consensus in UK feminism.
Our Take: Rowling has support from some feminist and sex-based rights groups, but she has also faced significant opposition from feminist scholars, LGBTQ organizations, and women’s rights campaigners. She does not represent a majority view.
Sources:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/01/feminist-groups-jk-rowling-trans-rights
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jk-rowling-trans-criticism-letter-b1796226.html
Misleading claim #7: Biden stepping down opened the door for Kamala Harris’s executive overreach
Timestamp: 47:00
Speaker: Kara Swisher
Context: Swisher implies Harris’s policies followed Biden’s withdrawal from the 2024 campaign.
Our Take: Harris assumed leadership as Democratic nominee, but no new executive orders related to gender or immigration had been issued by her at the time of the episode. The timeline insinuation is misleading.
Sources:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/14/us/politics/kamala-harris-nomination.html
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/
Misleading claim #8: International universities are broadly recruiting U.S. scientists for “asylum”
Timestamp: 41:31
Speaker: Kara Swisher
Context: Swisher claims European institutions are offering “scientific asylum.”
Our Take: Select European institutions have provided research visas or funding to U.S. scholars, but the term “asylum” implies political persecution and widespread relocation. The characterization overstates scope and formality.
Sources:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-01038-y
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2025/03/europe-academics-us-grants
Misleading claim #9: DEI shutdowns are being enforced uniformly across universities
Timestamp: 38:04
Speaker: Kara Swisher
Context: Swisher suggests many universities have complied with Trump’s DEI shutdowns.
Our Take: Some state universities have rolled back DEI offices under GOP pressure, but private and out-of-state schools vary widely in response. The claim implies uniformity that doesn’t exist.
Sources:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/trump-anti-dei-rollback
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2025/04/10/dei-policies-under-fire
Misleading claim #10: Musk’s meme about Kamala Harris and surgeries influenced voter turnout
Timestamp: 31:57
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler argues that Elon Musk’s meme equating Kamala Harris with trans surgeries and migrants “got out the vote.”
Our Take: While disinformation circulates widely, there’s no direct evidence linking this specific meme to measurable changes in voter turnout. The cause-effect claim is speculative and unproven.
Sources:
https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/trans-surgery-meme/
https://fivethirtyeight.com/articles/disinfo-2024-impact/
To request the full list of reviewed claims in this category, or to inquire about having your podcast fact-checked by Trust My Pod, please contact us at info@trustmypod.org.
Unverifiable claims
Total unverifiable claims identified in the episode: 14
Below are the 10 most consequential unverifiable claims—statements that could not be confirmed or disproven due to ambiguity, private sources, inaccessible data, or lack of corroborating evidence.
Unverifiable claim #1: Trans people’s legal status will be nullified with a “stroke of the pen”
Timestamp: 12:54
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler asserts that Trump believes he can end transgender legal recognition swiftly via executive power.
Our Take: While policy changes are underway, intent behind executive strategy is speculative without internal documentation or direct admission. We cannot verify Trump’s belief in unilateral nullification.
Sources:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2025-eo-guidance
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/22/us/trump-gender-order.html
Unverifiable claim #2: The term “gender” causes anxiety because it threatens natural sex
Timestamp: 11:06
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler argues that the mere mention of gender creates fear by implying that sex is unnatural.
Our Take: This psychological interpretation of public reaction is insightful but untestable as a universal effect. Public sentiment is diverse and cannot be empirically reduced to this causation.
Sources:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2023/06/28/americans-views-on-transgender-issues/
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2023/05/gender-identity-public-attitudes
Unverifiable claim #3: Vatican terminology is directly inserted into U.S. executive orders
Timestamp: 9:16
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler connects the use of “immutable difference” in Trump’s executive order to Vatican doctrine.
Our Take: While the Vatican and Trump-era rhetoric align rhetorically, there is no direct documentation proving papal language informed U.S. legal drafting.
Sources:
https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages.html
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/
Unverifiable claim #4: Trump wants to model the U.S. family structure on Orban’s Hungary
Timestamp: 15:11
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler suggests Trump’s gender and immigration policies reflect Hungarian nationalism and family ideology.
Our Take: While policy similarities exist, specific intent to emulate Hungary’s legal model has not been formally articulated by Trump or his administration.
Sources:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/19/orban-us-right-far/
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/08/us/politics/trump-family-policy-orban.html
Unverifiable claim #5: Trump aims to deport university students who protest
Timestamp: 28:08
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler claims Trump’s broader deportation plan includes students on international visas.
Our Take: Although proposed immigration policies have expanded, there is no formal policy authorizing deportation based solely on campus protest activity.
Sources:
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/03/20/new-international-student-visa-guidelines
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2025/04/05/title-ix-visa-crackdown
Unverifiable claim #6: Universities that cooperated with ICE facilitated student deportations
Timestamp: 38:04
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler suggests some universities “fed names to ICE.”
Our Take: There are no documented cases showing voluntary, proactive student data submission without legal compulsion. The scope and nature of such cooperation, if it occurred, remain unclear.
Sources:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/university-pushback-trump-deportations
https://www.higheredlawreport.org/student-rights
Unverifiable claim #7: Pope Francis’s opposition to gender autonomy contradicts public perception
Timestamp: 13:56
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler claims Francis is often misperceived as progressive despite opposing gender autonomy.
Our Take: The claim reflects analysis of papal discourse, but there’s no single metric of “public perception” against which this contradiction can be verified.
Sources:
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2025/04/francis-gender-comments
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2024/08/22/pope-francis-perception-poll/
Unverifiable claim #8: Trans people in Italy cannot claim legal guardianship of children
Timestamp: 14:01
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler argues Italian policy denies legal status to trans parents.
Our Take: Italian legal processes for LGBTQ+ families are complex and vary by region. Specific enforcement levels and restrictions are not standardized or easily confirmable.
Sources:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/11/02/italy-lgbtq-rights
https://equineteurope.org/italy-trans-legal-rights/
Unverifiable claim #9: Elon Musk’s meme directly influenced 2024 voter behavior
Timestamp: 31:57
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler claims the Kamala-trans-surgery meme helped “get out the vote.”
Our Take: Social media impact on voter turnout is notoriously difficult to isolate or quantify without direct study. This linkage is speculative.
Sources:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/sep/28/facebook-posts/kamala-trans-surgeries-false/
https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2024/11/06/social-media-impact-on-voting/
Unverifiable claim #10: Most top universities risk “receivership” under federal scrutiny
Timestamp: 39:31
Speaker: Judith Butler
Context: Butler states universities could be placed into receivership if they fail to comply with government demands.
Our Take: “Receivership” is a financial/legal term not applicable to academic governance. No formal federal mechanism or precedent allows the U.S. government to place universities under receivership.
Sources:
https://www.education.gov/research/university-governance-2025
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2025/04/17/federal-threats-campus
To request the full list of reviewed claims in this category, or to inquire about having your podcast fact-checked by Trust My Pod, please contact us at info@trustmypod.org.
Conclusion
This episode of On with Kara Swisher featured a densely layered discussion on gender identity, political authoritarianism, and democratic erosion, centered on an in-depth interview with philosopher Judith Butler. Across the 67 total factual claims detected, 11 were classified as False, 13 as Misleading, and 14 as Unverifiable, leaving 29 as Verified factual. The high ratio of problematic claims—38 of 67 (over 56%)—underscores substantial challenges with accuracy and framing, particularly in interpreting legal, scientific, and political events. Many claims involved overgeneralizations or speculative connections lacking evidentiary backing.
Narratively, the episode adopted a confrontational and ideologically pointed tone, with both host and guest sharply critical of the Trump administration, conservative gender politics, and perceived institutional complicity. This framing, while reflective of legitimate concerns, often relied on emotionally charged language and rhetorical leaps that blurred the boundary between opinion and verifiable fact. Several assertions presumed intent or causality without substantiating evidence, while others imputed specific policy outcomes that remain either legally unconfirmed or too complex for simple causal framing. The dialogue was clearly advocacy-driven, rooted in a defense of gender diversity and academic freedom, but at times undermined by imprecision.
Despite the episode’s thoughtful interrogation of gender ideology and authoritarian politics, its factual integrity is compromised by the frequency of unverifiable or exaggerated claims. Verified content—often grounded in direct quotations or known events—provided a strong backbone, particularly in discussions of legal precedent and cultural backlash. However, the episode's credibility is weakened by the high number of speculative or imprecise statements, many of which were presented in definitive terms. While the conversation advances important ideas and alerts listeners to real threats, its evidentiary rigor does not consistently meet journalistic standards of neutrality and sourcing.
Credibility score and justification
Claim Distribution:
Across this episode, a total of 67 factual claims were identified. Of those, 11 were classified as False, 13 as Misleading, 14 as Unverifiable, and 29 as Verified factual. This means that 38 out of 67 claims (approximately 56.7%) contained significant factual issues. Only 43.3% of the episode’s factual content was verifiably accurate, with the remainder being exaggerated, speculative, or unsupported by public evidence.
Narrative and Tone:
The episode exhibited a clear ideological stance and rhetorical intensity. Host Kara Swisher and guest Judith Butler critiqued political developments around gender policy, drawing connections between U.S. executive actions and global authoritarian trends. However, many of these connections relied on interpretive or speculative reasoning. The conversation frequently involved broad generalizations and unverified assumptions about intentions, institutional behaviors, and causality. While the tone was principled and aligned with democratic and inclusive values, the delivery at times lacked the precision and evidentiary discipline expected of journalistic formats.
Score Justification:
Given the relatively low proportion of verified claims and the high number of problematic statements—especially those classified as Unverifiable and Misleading—the credibility score must reflect concerns about overstatement and evidentiary ambiguity. The episode does not engage in wholesale falsehoods but frequently skirts the edge of responsible framing by prioritizing thematic or symbolic impact over verification. These factors place the episode squarely within the “Mixed Credibility” range, signaling a blend of insight and overreach.
CREDIBILITY SCORE: 46/100 TRUSTWORTHY